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#groups#leader#antifa#capitalism#tools#system#doesn#hosting#government#problem

Discussion (76 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

john_strinlaiabout 2 hours ago
>A/I’s cadre of radical hackers and tech developers provide a full spectrum of services – including encrypted chats and email, web hosting, secure video conferencing and streaming, anonymity shields, and a suite of other technological tools [...] while remaining anonymous, untraceable, and beyond the reach of the law.

ignoring the political leanings, this type of rhetoric will certainly be used to further the campaign against encryption, bolster the case for id verification requirements, etc. it paints the use of everyday normal tools: email, web hosting, etc. as inherently bad if they are private.

Saline9515about 2 hours ago
A/I mails weren't e2e encrypted.
john_strinlaiabout 1 hour ago
not sure if that's relevant.

the announcement specifically calls out "encrypted chats and email" and implies that it's a bad thing because it is private

Saline9515about 1 hour ago
Well they restricted their services to users sharing their ideology and refused to collaborate after terrorist attacks, I don't think that here the issue is encryption here.
pbhjpbhjabout 1 hour ago
That's probably the point of it?

"We're murdering people and they have the audacity to organise against us"!

NDlurkerabout 2 hours ago
>Rose City Antifa also used A/I Collective tools and services to disseminate doxing lists and release illegally obtained personal information of Federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement, along with calls for targeted attacks on ICE agents in the streets and “in their homes.”

That's what DHS does. They dish it out but can't handle it when it's done to them. Cowards.

schwankabout 1 hour ago
Rose City 'Til I Die. Go pound sand fascists. Traitors to the Constitution.
impossibleforkabout 2 hours ago
Very strange to decide to only supply a communications system to people ideologically aligned with one. That seems like it would make one stand out to an undesirable degree, and it makes me wonder whether these groups actually do this, or whether they're setting others up. If this is correct I almost whether they're going after something set up by the Italian government.

Still, it seems like this would likely to be protected under the US first amendment, and it would probably be reasonable to bring legal action in the US to avoid silly stuff happening in Europe, when this in inevitably used to send goons and annoying infiltrators across the sea to Italy and Europe.

iamnothereabout 2 hours ago
It’s fairly common, given the presence of Disroot and Riseup. The problem for political groups is that they can’t necessarily trust non-aligned hosts not to betray them. A warrant is one thing, you have to comply regardless, but non-aligned hosts may hand over data upon request even if there is no warrant.
impossibleforkabout 2 hours ago
Yeah, but it is possible to make distributed systems.

I've written up a little toy in Erlang where you have lots of connections to peers and send dummy messages, all of the same size, to all your peers continuously and then, because of this, you can obviously send a message to whoever you like without anyone being able to know to whom you sent it. With a bit of extra delay you can add retransmission, and then you can have huge networks. Complete resistance to traffic analysis.

The only thing you need to accept to have this kind of security is to accept that message timing might be 1/s, or 0.1/s, but for things like e-mail that isn't a problem at all.

My system is not done. I had intended to finish it if ChatControl 2.0 passed, but since it didn't, and there's upon that a war on I didn't put it out, and I thought it was a bad idea to popularize this kind of thing since there was a war on, but it's quite straightforward. Many here could probably write something like it.

iamnothereabout 2 hours ago
There are plenty of P2P and anonymous collaboration tools out there, but the problem for these groups is that members will use insecure tools unless they are as convenient and capable as what they are used to. This is the same reason that the government constantly screws up its own opsec. Nontechnical people in any group are a serious problem for maintaining security.

(This is also why law enforcement concerns about encryption are overblown.)

StilesCrisis12 minutes ago
Doesn't that scale up terribly? If everyone has 100 friends and is constantly pinging them every second, you're just flooding the internet with junk.
godwinson__4-8about 1 hour ago
American companies have contested warrants have they not? The jump from request to warrant is not the major hurdle.

Imo people often make the wrong tradeoff here. If the government really wants something jurisdictional questions will not stop them. You're actually inviting them to just steal it at that point.

Better to keep things in the US where there will at least be a clear paper trail. And instead of wasting money on non-aligned infra budget for a half decent lawyer. American companies and citizens will have an easier time holding the American government accountable than "non-aligned" hosts. The current administration in particular is routinely embarrassed in the courts.

Sometimes I read about left wing civic groups and their privacy efforts and it feels delusional. You would think many of them would relish a paper trail of persecution and the publicity of a victorious court battle. The US government will not be deterred because you are hosting something in Europe or your homegrown service. It's really a bit of a joke to think so.

Plus what do you think is going to happen in two years? It feels like now is the time to lean into being on the shit list (if you can manage it - most of them are so ineffective they barely even register) so you can benefit when the tables turn in two years.

sybercecurityabout 2 hours ago
Declaring a group of "hackers" as global terrorists? Mark off that spot on your Cyberpunk Dystopia Bingo cards.
Saline9515about 2 hours ago
pbhjpbhjabout 1 hour ago
It's not a statement that they're continuing to do exactly the same as before. The people publishing this piece of propaganda at least want to present it as new, which is thus a new situation and so rightly reported as news.
caycepabout 1 hour ago
granted when I fire up Cyberpunk 2077 nowadays I'm not sure if I'm playing a computer game or a documentary
doolsabout 2 hours ago
Every announcement from these psychos reads like a missive from the Ministry of Peace
iamnothereabout 2 hours ago
Well this is concerning, hopefully they aren’t planning to go after Disroot and Riseup as well. The ability to access secure hosting shouldn’t depend on political orientation.
turcogutierrezabout 2 hours ago
Where's "antifa" headquarters, exactly? Who's their leader? And who's 2nd in command?
steve1977about 2 hours ago
That always reminds me of a graffiti I saw once, which simply commanded "Anarchy!"... the irony of which got a bit lost on the artist I think...
avaerabout 2 hours ago
That doesn't seem ironic at all. It would be ironic if "Anarchy!" had an HQ.
jayGlowabout 2 hours ago
having a hierarchy like that would make the group easier to deal with. similar groups use cell structures or leaderless approaches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance
Saline9515about 2 hours ago
An organization doesn't have to be centralized, just like communists weren't. This is a lazy argument.
Hizonner23 minutes ago
An organization does have to have a clear set of shared plans, toward which it takes a program of coordinated action. That's what an organization is. It's about being organized. A bunch of random individuals who share some opinions, occasionally use similar tactics, may cooperate sporadically, and describe themselves using some term or gravitate toward certain symbols, is not an organization. And it's not clear that "antifa" even does most of those things.

Nor are a bunch of small groups a single "organization" if they don't have some kind of ongoing, systemematic structure for coordinating their actions.

I'm an atheist. That doesn't make atheism an organization.

compass_copiumabout 2 hours ago
There was a national Communist Party as well as several Cominterns. Communists are pretty big on democratic centralism.
Saline9515about 1 hour ago
"Several cominterns" - each country had its communist party, meaning a certain level of decentralization.
GaryBlutoabout 2 hours ago
Where is the Neo-Nazi headquarters, exactly? Who's their leader? And who's second in command? Surely if there's no designated single headquarters they aren't a problem.
turcogutierrez22 minutes ago
compass_copiumabout 2 hours ago
Copy-pasting my comment to the other poster making the same point:

"Antifa" is not being presented as an ideology, it is being portrayed as a global terror cell. The specific purpose for this is to be able criminalize leftist politics, since the state has many more tools to prevent association with foreign groups.

"Nazi" does not have a leader, but the Nazi party had a leader. Atomwaffen had a leader. Various III% groups have leaders. Strangely, these groups are not being linked to foreign right-wing groups in an attempt to make them illegal.

Saline9515about 1 hour ago
It's false, the US has banned international right-wing groups such as the Jewish Defense League.
kjksfabout 2 hours ago
Where are "Nazi" headquarters? Who's their leader? And who's 2nd in command?

Maybe an ideology doesn't need headquarters or a leader.

StilesCrisis7 minutes ago
In America, probably the KKK? They do in fact have a leader and a second in command (not that I know or care who).
compass_copiumabout 2 hours ago
"Antifa" is not being presented as an ideology, it is being portrayed as a global terror cell. The specific purpose for this is to be able criminalize leftist politics, since the state has many more tools to prevent association with foreign groups.

"Nazi" does not have a leader, but the Nazi party had a leader. Atomwaffen had a leader. Various III% groups have leaders. Strangely, these groups are not being linked to foreign right-wing groups in an attempt to make them illegal.

Saline9515about 1 hour ago
Antifa is a bit more radical than classic leftist politics, advocates for and commits violence, at least in my country (France).

The lack of designated leader doesn't mean that they get a pass and can continue to commit homicide attempts against their designated ennemies, or journalists they don't like.

It's part of their strategy, just like they manage to have 10 persons to light up and throw a molotov cocktail during protests to avoid personal responsibility.

xrdabout 2 hours ago
Rose City Antifa: Oregon gets a shout out. Seriously.
superkuhabout 2 hours ago
The 2001 AUMF (authorization of us of military force) needs to be repealed so that these "special designations" are no longer allowed and war has to be declared. The US federal government will still perform the same acts but at least after the 2001 AUMF is repealed they'll have to go back to secret assassinations. Instead of flouting it in semi-public with the executive disposition matrix system.
ChrisArchitectabout 2 hours ago
Related:

US sanctions Italian hosting provider for encrypted email to Antifa and PKK

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49451343

treetalkerabout 1 hour ago
Is antiantifascism profascism?
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freitasmabout 2 hours ago
Of course the fascists in power have a problem with real freedom.
Saline9515about 2 hours ago
Freedom to sabotage rail systems that are the property of the people and actually managed by communist unions? Come on?
compass_copiumabout 1 hour ago
A/I collective is not being accused of that, but of hosting information and providing communications services.
Saline9515about 1 hour ago
If I vet Al Qaida members on my platform, provide them services, continue to do it after several bombings, and keep their unencrypted mails and host their websites, I'm quite sure that I can be considered as an accomplice.
pbhjpbhjabout 1 hour ago
Communist unions manager rail systems? Where?
mdb333about 2 hours ago
Siamo tutti antifascisti!
sphabout 1 hour ago
Not around these parts, especially not in the European sense.
davidwabout 2 hours ago
Not in the tech industry, apparently. As a 50 year old, it's really shocking to see what I thought were just solid, solid underpinnings of a modern liberal society like "white nationalists are bad and should be ostracized" eroding.
kelseyfrogabout 2 hours ago
Why can't capitalism be judged on its own merits? Why do we need the state to get involved in shaping hegemony?
deepfriedchokesabout 2 hours ago
You know the answer. There’s a reason the state considers antifa a threat.
skeledrewabout 2 hours ago
Capitalism "needs to win", but there's no way it can without being ruthlessly forced upon people. Heck even forcing it is just delaying the inevitable decline/crash.
ethagnawlabout 1 hour ago
Certain elements of Capitalism (cough AI) seem to simultaneously be speedrunning its decline and keeping it on life support. What strange times we find ourselves in.
Saline9515about 2 hours ago
I think that we had had enough time to judge communism on its own merits. Why do you want to try again?
kelseyfrogabout 2 hours ago
Let's stick to the topic please. Don't dilute the investigation with random detours.
Saline9515about 1 hour ago
What has "judging capitalism on its merits" to do with the US declaring an Antifa SaaS provider terrorists?
antonvsabout 2 hours ago
Capitalism has been judged on its own merits, and been found to be a ridiculously simplistic, unworkable system that tends toward oligarchy, massive inequality, and authoritarianism.

The state needs to get involved to protect the unworkable system.

fodkodraszabout 2 hours ago
Maybe you are right, at least partially, I can identify many of its flaws myself. However for example my homeland has tried communism/socialism, and went through brief periods of anarchy, and the same can be told about all. My family has lost a lot to all of these experiments (including the current capitalist one), but stability and modest prosperity are the best, and anarchism is as far from that as it gets, especially as represented by the Antifa.

Even the communist regime persecuted anarchism. (though they supported it when it was not at home, as a destabilizing tool)

matkonieczabout 2 hours ago
Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics.

(though unconstrained capitalism is not ideal)

> unworkable system

? unconstrained pure capitalism has bad effects, but it is not unworkable unlike say pure communism applied at scale larger than a family

antonvsabout 1 hour ago
> Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics.

No, it demonstrably doesn’t. The countries that have the least problems with the issues I mentioned are ones that combine market economics with socialist approaches.

In many ways, those countries are closer to market socialism than they are to pure capitalism.

Also, the US’s historical use of socialism and communism as a bogeyman is starting to look less defensible as China succeeds while the US is failing, and actually doing all the immoral things it used to accuse its opponents of.

mjhayabout 2 hours ago
Beyond parody
schwankabout 1 hour ago
Rose City 'Til I Die. Go pound sand fascists. Traitors to the Constitution.
totallygeekyabout 2 hours ago
Wish they would pay this sort of attention to the violent right-wing groups in the US, but of course that would put too many cops and ICE agents in prison for their liking.

Anyway, wouldn't be a day ending in -y if this presidency wasn't yelling about "far-left terrorists".

mcmcmcabout 2 hours ago
They pay plenty of attention, that’s their recruiting pool
rootsudoabout 2 hours ago
In two years and 2 months regime change will swing it back.
ranger_dangerabout 2 hours ago
And then it will swing back again... some say the two-party system is simply broken
jackb4040about 2 hours ago
And the culture of hacker news will follow suit, woke 3.0