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Analyzed from 3023 words in the discussion.
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#insurance#health#revenue#profit#uhg#accounting#pay#medical#through#costs
Discussion Sentiment
Analyzed from 3023 words in the discussion.
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Discussion (69 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services, and revenue when those are sold? A grocery store sells food and uses the money to buy more food, pay its employees, reinvest etc, and the profit leftover goes to the owners. An insurance company sells policies and similarly uses the money to pay claims, pay employees, reinvest, and profit. Why is the insurance company's sales revenue pass-through and the grocery store's sales revenue not?
Update (30 minutes in): the replies so far all seem very superficial. Yes, I know that insurance is not exactly the same as grocery stores. This does not explain why they should suddenly be treated differently from an accounting perspective despite what everyone else before this moment has done.
The thinking here is that because UHG is legally obligated to pay out claims, this money only "passes through" their hands. I believe the legal obligation is the thing here.
Anyway, if these pass through costs (the claims they are legally obligated to pay) are removed from the equation then their revenue number is smaller and their profit margin is larger.
Lots of businesses and industries have legal obligations to pay money for various things at various times, they don't treat that as pass through...it's revenue and expenses. Money is fungible.
“This measure, while a standard accounting metric, obscures the strong financial performance of financial intermediaries such as health insurance companies, whose revenues are mostly pass-through payments between insured individuals and their health service providers. […]”
It seems to me that this document is almost entirely an argument for changing the accounting rules because of this distortion.
To illustrate the problem with this, what would you calculate their revenue to be if you become severely ill and they pay out $100,000?
There is no such concept in accounting as negative gross revenue. And situations where net revenue goes negative are exceedingly rare and complex (you’d probably hear about it in the news and someone might end up in jail).
The "Insurance Style" View (If they copied UHG's model): If an investment fund counts your $1000 deposit as their own revenue and treats buying stocks for you as their own cost, they made $50 on $1150 of sales and have a 4.3% profit margin.
The distinction is that the insurance company is not selling you medical services; those are covered by your and other clients' own money. They are selling the service of managing a central fund to reduce risk for the people who are part of it. For them to claim that you were paying them for medical services, they shouldn't just be covering the hospital bills—they should be operating the hospital and buying and selling the drugs themselves. It might feel like they do that, but this is actually done by the healthcare providers and pharmacies, with the costs merely covered by the insurance fund.
Grocery-Bagging Analogy: Imagine you pay a teenager $10 an hour to help bag customers' groceries. In that hour, $2000 worth of groceries get bagged, and your business takes a $100 fee from the store for the service. After paying the teenager, you pocket $90.Do you claim a 90% profit margin on your $100 service fee? Or do you claim that your "costs" were $2010 because you included the value of the customers' groceries, pretending your margin was a measly 4.3% while walking away with almost all the fee?
This is true of life insurance, investment firms, and banks. It's also true of marketplaces that connect buyers and sellers, like Etsy.
Groceries stores are buying from suppliers and selling to consumers, but those are separate operations. If the consumers opt out, the grocery stores (temporarily) still have a full and complete obligation to their suppliers. It's hard to sell to customers without supply, but if you try hard, you could theoretically do that as well.
Somebody with a better financial background might be able to define the nuances of accounting practices here, but there's already a pretty meaningful line that's established. It is kind of weird that health insurance doesn't behave like a financial product.
Fundamentally every insurance company is governed by 3 ratios, loss ratio (what percentage of premium is paid to make the buyer of the insurance whole), expense ratio (cost of doing business, paying staff, keeping office lights on, paying vendors) and combined ratio (both of these combined). These are true for any insurance company which writes premium using their own capital, whether its health insurance, life insurance, property insurance, SMB insurance.
The thing this article is missing here is that the "pass through" costs are costs incurred by UHG directly, they are the ones paying the bills. How is this pass through, it's not being passed to the consumer, the only thing I pay is my deductible and retention which is at most a couple of thousand dollars, these are true costs borne by UHG. So in practice if I pay 100 bucks every paycheck, UHG is taking in 2600 bucks worth of premium, using average industry loss ratios which are say 60%, UHG is paying directly 1,560 bucks to care providers for my own care. I'm not paying that, what I pay is a deductible which is treated entirely separately.
I am the biggest insurance skeptic in the world because I think the business model is awful, a business's return on capital averages at 5-10% a year which is truly an awful return for how much capital is required. Insurance companies will make between 0 and 10% of underwriting profit a year (the pure profit from insurance premium minus total expenses) and they usually operate a very large investment vehicle invested typically 70% into bonds/gilts. That being said, this doctor's view of how insurance accounting works by comparing it to a biopharma or a trading brokerage firm is immensely disingenuous.
Based on the source I, personally, don’t find it to be a credible argument
>Based on the source I, personally, don’t find it to be a credible argument
Agreed. This just has "if we redefine [commonly used term], then we get a more shocking/favorable number for our cause" vibes. You see this in government statistics as well, eg. "the official unemployment rate might be 4% (or whatever), but if you factor in people who are discouraged and people who are underemployed (whatever that means), it's actually 15%!" or "the official poverty rate might be 10%, but if you redefine 'poverty' to mean 'not being able to raise a family of 4 on a single income', the actual poverty rate is 40%!"
We have a set of accounting rules that apply to firms who are middlemen with clearly distinct transactions with both their suppliers and customers. We have another set of accounting rules that apply to firms who act as a third party agent in a transaction.
Whenever you have such a classification, you are always going to have a gray area in between, firms where a judgement has to be made on which set of rules to apply.
Your unemployment example is great: we have 6 different definitions of unemployment, U1 through U6. Different ones should be used in different situations. And there are grey areas between the classifications -- are you a "discouraged worker" (u4) or "marginally attached worker" (u5)?
Suppose you run a brokerage or some kind of marketplace enabling transactions. Should all transactions passing through your platform be considered your revenue? Or only the part that stays with you for the services you provide, while deducting the component which is simultaneously directed to the transaction counterparty?
In one simple perspective, calling these revenue and inventory would make sense only in a world where you hold on to the cash and the goods for extended periods, so they need to be appropriately accounted for in your books among cash flows and balances.
So what should be the correct accounting model for an insurance service that collects premiums and holds on to your money and pays later for services once you avail them?
I imagine that so long as they are taking on the risk of how much service you might avail rather than simply putting a stop at how much you've paid them in advance, then the premiums they collect ought to be considered revenue, to balance against the as yet unknown inventory costs.
You're just asserting common convention among some implicitly selected audience that you consider "most" people, rather than justifying why that is the most reasonable practice.
Not that I consider it unreasonable (as I explained above).
Most people (in the populace) are unfortunately not numerate enough to have a thoughtful opinion on how it ought to be accounted, and are irrelevant to this discussion.
So it goes something like this
United Health Group -> United Health Insurance United Health Group -> Sunshine Hospital.
United Health Insurance has a profit cap, it’s a % of revenue. Sunshine Hospital has no cap. So Sunshine Hospital charged United Health Insurance X$ and that profit rolls up to United Health Group.
That doesn't really work as a strategy unless UHI cornered the insurance market within a given region, otherwise they'd lose business to competing hospitals. You might then say "hospitals aren't competitive, they're (regional) monopolies!", which might be true, but if that were the case, you'd expect them to raise prices anyways. They're profit maximizing companies after all, not operating out of altruism.
It's actually far more insidious.
The payer will have non-owned providers on their network, and by virtue of processing those claims they will understand a lot about the provider. They use this info to decide which providers to acquire. If the provider declines acquisition, the payer will use their member population (i.e. customers/patients of the provider who are covered by the payer) as leverage in negotiations against the provider, effectively crippling their business.
Once a practice is sufficiently maimed, they come back with another acquisition offer, and ta-da, the big player gets bigger.
Yes, all of this only works if the payer is large relative to other payers. There was a period of history where this was a caveat, now it's just an observation about history. Now, there is 1 or 2 mega-players in each region. They've divvied up the country into their own territories and will extract rent henceforth.
It's very important to understand that this model also eliminates all incentives to reduce costs of care. There is not a single player in the entire ecosystem who is incentivized to reduce cost of care except patients, but even there, most patients' health insurer is selected by their employer. Then what is an employer going to do? Select a health plan that doesn't have any local healthcare providers?
1. Certain government contracts are what are called "cost plus" contracts. These have the same flaw. If the contractor earns 20% above "costs", they're incentivized for a cost blowout. Same with insurance premiums. If you have $100B in premiums, then $20B doesn't have to be spent on healthcare. But if premiums were $1T, then that same ratio is $200B. It incentivizes insurers to raise premiums; and
2. Health insurers cheat on the ratio by moving profits elsewhere. For example, UHC has a pharamaceutical benefits manager ("PBM"). Sounds inocuous but it's evil. PBMs bulk negotiate with drug suppliers but can basically keep the volume discount as an extra profit. PBMs do much more such as constantly force what medications are covered to force people to ssee providers even and get a prescription for whatever the new medication is even if they're stable on current medications. The whole point is to make people give up (or die).
But health insurance companies also own providers like hospitals and medical providers, either directly or through thinlyhh veiled subsidiaries meant to hide profits and that corporations are making healthcare decisions (something certain states have laws against).
The whole thing is a ridiculous system and needs to be scrapped.
[1]: https://www.cms.gov/marketplace/private-health-insurance/med...
I'm pretty sure that's why UHC gives people on ACA $100 gift card just for visiting their PCP. That inflates the 80% bucket.
That being said, while $UHG has had a good year, the stock is still underwater from where it's been since 2021, and no noticeable movement from this report.
* https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/universal-health-coverage...
Study:
* https://doi.org/10.64898/2026.07.22.26358689
If you have better ways to highlight human qualities in a text only medium, I'd love to hear it. The last 30 years of internet has shown we always had problems with such communication, let alone the last few years LLM generated responses
Perfect grammar and punctuation is par for any publication.
I know what gp is saying. They want to stay credible to the general public without also bearing the over-polished and verbose hallmark of LLM.
So you're choosing to punish well-written text?
But also, obviously, they’re being a gadfly for funsies.
the meaning is still easily parseable. i cant imagine letting something so superficial matter
1) medical loss ratio rules mean insurers are expected/required to pass a certain percent of premium on as payment for medical services, in a way that a grocery store is not required
2) insurer is selling you a contract that they will pay your medical bills if you have any - they are NOT retailing you medical services
3)
I don't think there's much you can look at with the Affordable Care Act and think that it was a success.
Brokers quite correctly do not count the value of the shares because they never actually see it. But that's not the way insurance works--while dollars flow in and dollars flow out they are not remotely the same dollars. This feels like someone is trying to lie with statistics.
If you don't understand why are you commenting?
Your response makes absolutely no sense at all.