Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

65% Positive

Analyzed from 2339 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#svd#singular#values#matrix#math#https#linear#more#algebra#read

Discussion (74 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

FabHK•about 16 hours ago
BTW, if you wonder about the dedication ("For Gene Golub on his 15th birthday"):

Gene Golub was a numerical analyst, and father of the practical singular value decomposition (his license plate read "Prof SVD"), together with William Kahan (the father of IEEE 754 floating point numbers).

And his birthday was February 29. (In other words, the article was on the occasion of Gene's 60th birthday).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_H._Golub

RIP.

FabHK•about 2 hours ago
Just to add: Credit is also due to Prof Christian Reinsch from Technical University of Munich (in addition to Golub and Kahan) for the invention of the practical algorithm for computing the SVD still in use today.

https://blogs.mathworks.com/cleve/2022/10/23/christian-reins...

https://people.inf.ethz.ch/gander/talks/Vortrag2022.pdf

https://www.mathworks.com/company/technical-articles/profess...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reinsch

muragekibicho•about 22 hours ago
For the curious, eigenvalues only exist for square matrices. Singular values are like generalized eigenvalues.

Singular values are like the fundamental frequencies of your matrix. You know how you can define any color with RGB? In a (pretty handwavy) way, singular values are like RGB color codes for us math guys.

Optimizers like Muon and Adam play around with weights' first, or second order singular values to train models.

FabHK•about 2 hours ago
My intuitive take:

Eigenvectors answer the question, if you have a linear mapping from a space to itself: which lines through (through the origin) remain unchanged after the mapping? And the associated eigenvalues tell you how much a specific point on that line moves along the line. For example: If you rotate things in 3D, the rotation axis remains unchanged. That's the eigenvector. If you reflect things through a mirror plane, any line in that mirror plane will remain unchanged (with eigenvalue 1). Other lines will be, well, mirrored, but there is one line that is reflected onto itself: the one perpendicular to the mirror plane. However, points on it will go from one side to the other, so have eigenvalue -1.

The SVD says something else: Any linear mapping from a space (to itself or a different one - higher or lower dimensional) can be expressed as 1) first a rotation in the old space, then 2) some coordinate scaling or dilation (expansion/contraction) along the coordinate axes, described by the diagonal matrix with singular values, 3) then another rotation in the new space.

toolslive•about 21 hours ago
Just going to sound really pedantic here, but RGB does not capture the entire colour space. In fact, it only captures about 35% of the colours the human eye can perceive.

https://www.oceanopticsbook.info/view/photometry-and-visibil...

wtallis•about 21 hours ago
You seem to be conflating "RGB" with one particular RGB color space: sRGB. That's a common enough conflation to make, but not appropriate when you're trying to be pedantic.
toolslive•about 21 hours ago
Doesn't matter: there's no RGB model that captures the colour space. That exactly the reason CIE exists.
Aardwolf•about 7 hours ago
The eyes receptors are RGB too and they definitely capture all visible colors by definition (to be pedantic, yes there's also the rods for night vision, and the 'R' is more like yellow)
toolslive•about 6 hours ago
Tetrachromacy !?
piker•about 21 hours ago
Okay, but that was a really useful metaphor if incomplete in a lot of ways. It made me say “oh”.
esafak•about 20 hours ago
This is solved through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_color#Imaginary_primar... that sit outside the visible spectrum.
yaroslavvb•about 17 hours ago
Eigenvalue are more flexible than singular values -- If you have procedure for computing eigenvalues of C, squared singular values of X are eigenvalues of C=XX'. Left and write singular vectors of X and eigenvectors of XX' and X'X. For rotation rotation matrix, singular values are all 1. Meanwhile eigenvalues tell you angles of rotation https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4874616/obtaining-a...
xscott•about 16 hours ago
That's like saying spoons are more flexible than forks because you have soup (rotation matrices). Spoons and forks both work for rice (pos def matrices), and you'll want a fork for noodles (rectangular matrices).
yaroslavvb•about 14 hours ago
You can use eigenvalue solver to find singular values of any matrix but not vica versa. Implementing eigenvalues needs complex numbers
big-chungus4•about 21 hours ago
Last statement is a bit sus... Muon computes matrix sign function which can be defined as setting singular values to 1, though you can also define it without SVD. Muon itself doesn't use SVD because it uses a faster method to compute matrix sign. Adam doesn't do anything related to SVD or singular values. Also not sure what you meant by "second order singular values"
jmalicki•about 20 hours ago
ADAM is related if your second derivative matrix happens to be diagonal.

Of course, it takes about 5 minutes to show that any DNN is going to have very very high magnitude off-diagonal terms by the way it's constructed, so pretending that a diagonal approximation is close enough is crazy.

big-chungus4•about 20 hours ago
Adam doesn't use the second derivatives matrix, it uses second moments of the gradient, which is the diagonal of the uncentered covariance matrix, but neither of them are directly related to SVD or singular values anyway.

There is a slight connection where Adam approximates full-matrix Adagrad which computes inverse square root of the convariance matrix, which you usually do using eigendecomposition, but on the covariance matrix SVD and eigendecomposition are equivalent (can easily be converted to each other), so you could use SVD to compute the inverse square root.

tzury•about 18 hours ago
Chapter 7 of Linear Algebra Done Right by Sheldon Axler reads almost as poetry.

https://linear.axler.net/

jacobolus•about 18 hours ago
Really? I find the part about the SVD in Axler's book extremely unhelpful, big blobs of opaque formulas and jargon with next to no explanation or context that basically require either knowing the topic fully beforehand or a huge amount of effort to parse.

e.g. Axler's definition of singular values is the extremely dry and technical:

> Suppose T is in L(V, W). The singular values of T are the nonnegative square roots of the eigenvalues of T†T, listed in decreasing order, each included as any times as the dimension of the corresponding eigenspace of T†T.

(Using a dagger instead of an asterisk for the conjugate transpose since HN interprets and asterisk to mean italics.)

If you already just proved a lot of stuff about eigenvalues, this could be a serviceable definition; at any rate it saves space. But it doesn't really explain the point.

I'd recommend anyone interested in this or related topics read Trefethen & Bau (1997) Numerical Linear Algebra.

tzury•about 16 hours ago
From the preface

“You cannot read mathematics the way you read a novel.

If you zip through a page in less than an hour, you are probably going too fast.

When you encounter the phrase “as you should verify”, you should indeed do the verification, which will usually require some writing on your part.

When steps are left out, you need to supply the missing pieces.

You should ponder and internalize each definition.

For each theorem, you should seek examples to show why each hypothesis is necessary.”

It is a math studying book, not a let me chew it for you before you take it in type of a book. It requires effort, focus and missing steps are missing on purpose so you will discover them. This is the fun about studying mathematics.

Sorry you fell that way, but the book in my opinion is a masterpiece in math composition.

jacobolus•about 15 hours ago
That's all well and good, but you also shouldn't excuse authors for not providing context, motivation, or explanation under the theory that the students should really be figuring out the whole subject from scratch for themselves.

If you are really lucky the result of not explaining things might be an occasional exceptional student who works out a correct personal concept. But more commonly the result is just an unfilled gap in understanding and either a moderately motivated student who develops fluency with symbol twiddling but doesn't get the point of what they're doing or a less-motivated student who decides the topic sucks and gives up.

I've read a lot of linear algebra books, and I personally find Axler's to have average quality exposition and a not tremendously insightful point of view. I know other people who swear by the book though, so YMMV. It's more appropriate for a well prepared pure math student who wants to go to grad school and has a goal of internalizing a lot of jargon so they can read/write pure math papers than for a scientist or computer programmer.

XTXinverseXTY•about 14 hours ago
So you admit that chapter 7 does not read almost as poetry?
waynecochran•about 22 hours ago
The SVD seems to come up everywhere in my work in computer vision. I find myself continuously using the various C++/Eigen SVD implementations. Actually I should speak in the past tense. Claude and Codex are now generating all my code for me now, and I see them spitting out SVD code frequently -- often for very special cases. SVD truly is an amazing tool.
eigenspace•about 21 hours ago
It comes up anywhere that youre working with data that has some sort of correlation structure.

In image processing, the SVD makes it possible to talk about all the rich spatial correlations in the image, and pick out the strongest ones and discard noise.

This is also why it's so ubiquitous in compression algorithms, and of central importance in stuff like quantum information.

fooblaster•about 21 hours ago
what work are you doing in computer vision that isn't entirely ML these days?
waynecochran•about 20 hours ago
I'll give you one example, an often first step to solving the Perspective N Point (PNP) problem involves using the Direct Linear Transform (DLT) method which boils down to solving AX = 0 where A in a 12x2N matrix (N can be 6 to 500). The best way to solve this is with SVD. The first published PNP solver (for N = 3) dates to 1841 (did not use SVD) and we still are solving that problem now and I imagine we will still be solving it in 100 years (?).
fooblaster•about 1 hour ago
classic! Used the same thing to solve for the rigid transform of an April tag for a calibration problem years ago.
aptitude_moo•about 17 hours ago
I'm not the person you are replying to but I work in image processing of SAR radar images and it's mostly ML-free (thankfully because I don't enjoy it). I dont know which other areas still work with these things
fooblaster•about 1 hour ago
What sort of algorithms do you run on SAR images?
TimorousBestie•about 21 hours ago
> Claude and Codex are now generating all my code for me now, and I see them spitting out SVD code frequently -- often for very special cases.

I find this so annoying. I had to PR some Claude-generated gaussian elimination routine last month and making sure it got the pivoting logic correct was a waste of my time.

bee_rider•about 20 hours ago
How big of an advantage was it, to have the code developed specifically for your project? These AI tools are pretty impressive, but why not have it generate a call to BLAS or PARDISO or something?
waynecochran•about 16 hours ago
There are cases where you don't want the footprint of bringing in another framework / library or that is not even an option.
waynecochran•about 20 hours ago
You are doing it wrong. Have Claude generate the test code and log test data that it can feed back into itself. Claude can generate tests and verify the code better than humans now. I don't trust humans to get things right anymore -- I have a PhD and Claude knows all the math and libraries better than me.
TimorousBestie•about 20 hours ago
> You are doing it wrong.

I didn’t write any of it. I occasionally get assigned PRs written (or not, in this case) by other devs.

> Claude can generate tests and verify the code better than humans now.

It certainly didn’t do that in this case.

> I don't trust humans to get things right anymore -- I have a PhD and Claude knows all the math and libraries better than me.

If it knows all the libraries so well, why did it add a bespoke implementation?

jmalicki•about 20 hours ago
Some fun stuff about SVDs:

If you want to take a low rank approximation to a matrix D, let's call our approximation D'. The approximation that minimizes mean square error of the reconstructed matrix vs. the original (i.e. ||D - D'||_F, the Frobenius norm of their differences) happens to be the truncated SVD, by the Eckart–Young–Mirsky theorem [0].

I'm not claiming it's a practical way to do so, but this means that if you set up a neural network w/o nonlinearities that goes U -> S -> V^T, where S is a truncated scaling vector, and U and V^T are trained weights, make your loss function the MSE of reconstruction error, and minimize it with gradient descent, you will end up with the same U, S, and V that an SVD gives you.

In fact, this is basically exactly what a Variational Autoencoder [1] is! Way too few people realize this connection, and I wish it was taught in more ML courses. VAEs just add nonlinearities between U -> nonlinearity -> S -> nonlinearity -> V^T, and a KL-divergence regularization term. (Well VAEs are trained as operators to reconstruct vectors, and the S is an embedding not a trained weight, so I'm being a little sloppy, but still the connection is strong).

Once you realize this, you can have a lot of fun... anywhere you see an SVD being useful, you can construct arbitrary neural networks to replace them, and any time an SVD doesn't quite fit, e.g. you have binary data, realize that VAEs are just the same thing you can make all kinds of bespoke changes to... don't want MSE as your reconstruction error? Fine, use something else, but it's basically just an SVD!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-rank_approximation#Basic_l... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variational_autoencoder

amarcheschi•about 17 hours ago
I've recently passed my deep and generative learning exam and in fact before you said vae something was resonating with me, although in our course it wasn't made explicit we were approximating an svd.

Staying in the field of autoencoder, it blows my mind how you can pass from denoising autoencoder (computer science) to scores and eventually matching flows (physics) quite seamlessly

jmalicki•about 9 hours ago
To me, it's less that an autoencoder approximates an SVD, and more than an SVD is the OG autoencoder.
jmalicki•about 16 hours ago
I made a demo of the SVD part.

https://jmalicki.github.io/svd-grad/

The devil was in the details, and that escalated quickly from a simple idea to actually getting it to work sucked me into a ton of random deep corners.

amarcheschi•about 4 hours ago
Omg armijo, I don't want to see computational mathematics anymore lol
jmalicki•about 18 hours ago
I also forgot that you have to constrain U and V to be orthonormal - otherwise you end up with the same low rank approximation D', but exactly which numbers go in U, S, or V can shift as it's underdetermined without that constraint.
selimthegrim•about 18 hours ago
Aren't you skipping over the noise/stochasticity part from the sampling?
jmalicki•about 18 hours ago
Yes, that too, in addition to the other differences I pointed out.

But it's just an SVD with a few more bells and whistles in my view.

snalty•about 19 hours ago
Can anyone suggest a starting point to be able to read mathematics papers like this and understand them?
simonreiff•about 13 hours ago
I really recommend Professor Gilbert Strang's linear algebra course and also would check out any Michael Penn videos, both on YouTube, but for linear algebra, the Strang/MIT course is the best resource anywhere that I know. The Gilbert Strang video series on linear algebra includes the 18.06 course, as well as an 18.06B or something like that where he goes into detail about the SVD and ML algorithms like gradient descent.

Generally if you're struggling with a math paper on the first or second page, no point in fighting it; gotta come back after you have the prerequisites. Nobody is born knowing this stuff, and also, all branches of math contain endless piles of really easy-to-describe but hopelessly difficult problems so never feel bad if you don't know how to solve a problem or even understand what you are reading. Just take your time, learn what you need, come back, a bit more hopefully makes sense, learn still more, and over time more things will become familiar.

Diogenesian•about 16 hours ago
This paper is actually not a bad one to get started with. Obviously you need the proper background and I am not sure how much linear algebra you've taken. Going through a senior undergrad numerical linear algebra text might be a good way to learn the prerequsites. In particular, you'll never be able to read a math paper without developing mathematical maturity via textbook exercises.

Assuming you have the background, the boring answer is "patience and practice." For years I had to practically rewrite math papers word for word in order to get anything to stick. These days I am better at reading "mentally," but still sloppy and prone to misreading (just yesterday I misread GPT's proof because I was lazy and on my phone). More so than the empirical sciences, mathematics demands you understand every sentence before moving on to the next. Skimming does you no good. It really does just take patience and perseverance.

The nice thing about this paper is that the math isn't especially advanced, and it's broken up with qualitative historical discussions. If you know a decent bit of linear algebra (enough to understand artificial neural networks), I think you can muddle through this.

efavdb•about 13 hours ago
Great book: An Introduction to Statistical Learning

PDF here:

https://www.statlearning.com/

grassfedcode•about 10 hours ago
I recommend asking an LLM to generate an interactive webpage to visualize, teach, and quiz you on the concepts. Or just chat with it directly.
TimorousBestie•about 19 hours ago
Axler’s _Linear Algebra Done Right_ should get you at least part of the way there, content-wise, depending on what other math background you have.

As for reading math papers in general, it’s mostly a process of stepping through it incrementally and trying to verify the steps you don’t understand based on the surrounding context. Most of the concepts in this paper are accessible on Wikipedia or elsewhere, you can make small (e.g. 2 x 2) examples as you go and see what happens.

It’s not an easy skill to acquire from scratch, especially from outside the ivory tower.

allepo•about 19 hours ago
Bâtarde (or littera bastarda) is a hybrid script that blends formal Gothic blackletter with cursive elements.