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Discussion (99 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

u1hcw9nxabout 4 hours ago
Not explained in the article:

Every single physical core on the chip decodes and executes both s390x and Arm AArch64 instructions, dynamically switching between the two ISA modes and convert them into micro ops. Mode switching is hypervisor-driven.

And those chips are fast. 5.7 Ghz 2nm node.

For who: When you need to run Linux programs on high security, mission critical environment. Others should not care.

chao-about 3 hours ago
More details from the presentation at Hot Chips available via STH:

https://www.servethehome.com/ibm-z-and-linuxone-dual-isa-pro...

userbinatorabout 5 hours ago
The article is quite short on details but I wonder if this is an ARM core that can also execute IBM Z, or the other way around; in other words, which ISA does it execute its first instruction at the reset vector? In that past I've worked on a conceptual design for an "x86+" CPU, which would start as a regular x86 but then be able to execute code of other architectures like ARM, MIPS, PPC, etc. isolated in their own code segments, similar to how V86 mode works.
_joel44 minutes ago
"AI acceleration for in transaction fraud detection", sounds interesting but also quite risky. Is it just a generic inference accelerator or something more exotic?
trollbridge11 minutes ago
It’s a rebranding of ML which IBM has promoted for quite some time, used in a rather conventional fashion.

AI does not always mean LLM.

_joel10 minutes ago
I never said it did? ML has inference too, so...
classichasclassabout 14 hours ago
This feels like a baby step towards Arm being able to emulate z/Arch workloads, maybe with a bit of secret sauce for certain specific operations, which doesn't seem very much like IBM.
nxobjectabout 14 hours ago
I thought about that, too. I think they’re doing this for the same reason IBM has supported Linux LPARs: since a lot of customers who lease System/z currently probably get overprovisioned hardware that they’ll never fully use, why not try a last-ditch attempt to sell the excess capacity as ARM LPARs?

Now you’re thinking like a Big Blue sales rep.

rbanffyabout 13 hours ago
IIRC, they had different licensing prices for cores that would run z/OS workloads and cores that would run Linux on s390x (and other tier for Java, I think). This looks like they’ll have one for Linux on ARM as well.
stinkbeetleabout 11 hours ago
ARM can emulate z workloads. https://hercules-390.github.io/html/index.html

(or QEMU, for partition level emulation).

jasomillabout 3 hours ago
Sure. And you can run ARM workloads under QEMU on s390x Linux.
avhceptionabout 14 hours ago
Huh. ARM instead of ppc64le?
rbanffyabout 13 hours ago
ARM has better software support for AI applications and half of their presentation was about their inference accelerators that can go in the mainframes (and POWER machines).

IBM mainframes are almost designed by their users. The previous generation skipped a lot of speed boost on the CPU side because their users didn’t want the machine to blow over their power delivery limits.

Now, with their architecture behind it, I’m sure these ARM Linux partitions will have the fastest ARM cores ever made. My experience with Linux on s390x is that it feels like a normal server that’s just ludicrously fast - almost as if it came from the future.

avhceptionabout 13 hours ago
At least back in the day, there was talk about Nvidia + ppc64le. Wasn't there even a supercomputer with that setup? But I guess that has fallen by the wayside.
shrimppersimmonabout 9 hours ago
In 2019 the two fastest machines in the world, Summit & Sierra (see top500.org) used ppc64le + Nvidia GPUs.
rbanffyabout 13 hours ago
Yes. There was a generation of POWER that offered NVLink.
christkvabout 14 hours ago
Is this like the Transmeta processors doing code translation in hardware?
bryanlarsenabout 14 hours ago
No, this is more like any modern processor, which translates instruction codes into micro-ops. To over-simplify IBM just has two of these units per thread rather than one.
christkvabout 13 hours ago
I wonder how they handle potential differences in memory barriers, instruction order scheduling and other stuff and do they run the core in one mode continuously or do the mix instruction streams from different instruction sets? Anybody got a link to an article?
rbanffyabout 13 hours ago
Possible different micro ops for different semantics.

They also don’t mix instructions sets within the same process - the diagram I saw had ARM Linux as a guest under z/VM or KVM. For generations now no OS (not VM, not z/OS) hasn’t seen the bare metal machine, only ran under the PR/SM hypervisor, which is what does the logical partitions now.

In order to properly run OSs for the 360 and 370 generations, s390x also has instructions for setting up CPU flags to more precisely emulate older machines. From an s390x binary you can, IIRC, do a jump to an address telling it that, from the jump forward the ISA is the one of a 360 until it encounters a return, which restores 390 mode.

bryanlarsenabout 13 hours ago
I had much the same question, which is one of the reasons I used the term "over-simplify". my guess is that many of the units have a toggle "arm mode / z mode", which would mean that mixing streams would be unlikely. I wonder if they chose ARM over x86 or other options partly because important aspects like the memory model of ARM and z were more similar than the memory models of x86 and z.
stonogoabout 14 hours ago
They were pretty clear at Hot Chips that it's native
to11mtmabout 13 hours ago
.... I -so- miss RealWorldTech write-ups, I'd love to see what David Kanter would have to say about this thing...
ccgregabout 10 hours ago
David recently announced he was leaving MLCommons, so maybe we'll get him back as an industry analyst.
pulse7about 14 hours ago
"code translation in hardware" microcode is called "native"
wahernabout 13 hours ago
Yep. All modern Intel and AMD architectures, save maybe some Atom variants, effectively JIT compile the incoming instructions. It's part of the reason the faster-than-static Java/JVM promises never came to fruition. The goal posts moved after the mainstream chips coopted the approach, in a sense, and they continue to move as pipelines get deeper and broader and transistor count goes up.

Transmeta was a classic failure--right idea, wrong place & time.

rbanffyabout 13 hours ago
IBM’s microcode is really something. Not too long ago I heard about writing “millicode” as something that’s not at the microcode level, but not quite up at the ISA level.
LoganDarkabout 14 hours ago
Transmeta did code translation with a software JIT. The hardware side had specific support for x86 semantics, similar to how Apple's M-series has supporting hardware for Rosetta's AOT translation, but neither executes x86 machine code directly.
SeifHashishabout 12 hours ago
why is IBM moving forward that way
wmfabout 11 hours ago
Because ARM is the future.
markus_zhangabout 14 hours ago
I was curious, is it conceptually similar to Data General Fountainhead project?
stonogoabout 14 hours ago
If by that you are asking whether it has a dynamic ISA controllable at runtime, it appears not. This looks to be a Z processor with arm instructions implemented.
markus_zhangabout 12 hours ago
Oh I see, thanks!
crmdabout 14 hours ago
I was reading HN comments yesterday shitting on modern IBM for being a non tech consulting company that has not innovated since the mid nineties.
pavlovabout 14 hours ago
More like mid-2000s, even with the least charitable interpretation.

There was a time when IBM dominated console CPUs for a massively successful generation (PS3, Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii).

to11mtmabout 13 hours ago
It's a little more complex than that, IMO.

For starters, IBM did also do the CPU for the GameCube, and that was likely a part of the Wii using an upgraded PPC arch for that.

On the flipside, there is the theory (I think even Copetti brings it up in their XBox 360 Architecture breakdown [0]) that IBM using the Cell PPE for the 360's tri-cores left a sour taste in Toshiba, but more-so Sony's mouths.

I think the big 'X factor' though, was that, for as much pain as it caused AMD in the short term, (it's so easy to forget their 'malaise' era, i.e. Early Bulldozer and the GloFo split pains to their margins[1]), AMD made all the 'right' choices to let the console vendors have their cake and eat it too.

Namely, AMD was more than happy to do a custom core if there was a volume contract (similar to what IBM was willing to for the 360/GC/Wii) but also now had a capable, in-house GPU. (And thankfully had Bobcat as a stepping point towards Jaguar[2])

There's part of me that asks, if AMD had an ARM core, if we would have all Consoles powered by AMD chips now. Nintendo likely bought into Tegra because it was an ARM core, and for better or worse their mobile stuff by the time of making that choice had 15+ years of proven ARM success (GBA, DS, 3DS) behind it.

(See also, Intel in the 2010s scrambling with half-assed promises of integrating custom functionality or FPGAs with x86 cores.)

[0] - https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/xbox-360/

[1] - From what I recollect, the GloFo split and how the contracts were drawn up as far as their production, had a huge impact on their ability to produce due to yields and thermals, as well as the contracts for how GloFo got paid; it was at least part of them diversifying with TSMC as soon as they reasonably could.

[2] - As a Rant, I am pretty sure, if Jaguar had Desktop/Mobile versions that included a Dual channel DDR controller, they would have cleaned up on the low cost laptop market. I had one with, I think it was an A5000 or A5200, and for how tiny the battery was it could last wayyyy longer than any of the intel laptops I had for the time, but churned if you were doing memory heavy stuff.

claudexabout 3 hours ago
>There's part of me that asks, if AMD had an ARM core, if we would have all Consoles powered by AMD chips now. Nintendo likely bought into Tegra because it was an ARM core, and for better or worse their mobile stuff by the time of making that choice had 15+ years of proven ARM success (GBA, DS, 3DS) behind it.

AMD worked on a ARM core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_K12 but I'm not sure it would had work, they were never the best on the power consumption, so I'm not sure it would have been a good choice for the Switch.

monocasaabout 13 hours ago
> On the flipside, there is the theory (I think even Copetti brings it up in their XBox 360 Architecture breakdown [0]) that IBM using the Cell PPE for the 360's tri-cores left a sour taste in Toshiba, but more-so Sony's mouths.

It's more than a theory. It's pretty much spelled out explicitly in The Race For A New Game Machine how salty not just Sony and Toshiba were in the broad sense, but also the Sony and Toshiba engineers that the IBM team worked with felt pretty betrayed.

wildzzzabout 10 hours ago
Intel did release a few generations of their Xeons with an Arria built in but it's been a couple years since the last release. It's a cool idea but I think all the money dried up quick once the AI boom started. Plus they spun off Altera so I doubt they'll be doing it again.
wmfabout 13 hours ago
I think Nintendo used Tegra because it was super cheap. AMD has access to the same ARM cores as everyone else (see Seattle and Sound Waves) but a semi-custom chip would have been more expensive than an overstocked Tegra.
rbanffyabout 14 hours ago
Having a presence in the consumer market is not a requirement for being innovative.

IBM stopped building servers based on x86 because the margins were too thin for their tastes, but they never stopped building on top of POWER and Z.

Retricabout 14 hours ago
Xbox 360 used an Intel CPU.

PS3 used the Cell processor but it’s debatable how much that was an asset vs handicap. Total PlayStation sales dropped for that generation vs both PS2 and PS4. The manufacturing costs didn’t fall nearly as fast as expected and it was a poor fit in terms of cross platform development etc.

PS4 moved to AMD.

rbanffyabout 14 hours ago
> Xbox 360 used an Intel CPU.

No. It was a PowerPC based one called, IIRC, Xenon.

monocasaabout 14 hours ago
To be fair, IBM did this in the 90s with the PowerPC 615, which had PowerPC and x86 decoders on the same core.
rbanffyabout 14 hours ago
But those ARM and s390x decoders have a “Telum III” architecture behind them with a cache that’s pretty innovative.

IBM has never stopped innovating. It’s just that most people can’t afford their machines.

monocasaabout 13 hours ago
Yeah, their cache work is undeniably really cool.

That being said I think it's a natural consequence of the difference between a mainframe and commodity servers. A mainframe is going to be running pretty disparate workloads simultaneously, so it makes sense to steal from your neighbor if they aren't using their cache. Whereas it's more likely that a commodity server is just running the same server on each core, and if you have a different workload, you pick a different shape of server to run it on. There are pros and cons to both.

I do wonder about the spectre consequences of borrowing cache lines from other cores though.

wmfabout 14 hours ago
The z mainframe team does good technical work but then the high price cancels out all the value of that work. I'm not sure if that counts as innovation or not.
tempest_about 13 hours ago
At this point no one is buying into mainframes are they?

So they are just selling to the existing pool of users for which the price just has to come in under the cost/risk of rewriting all their ancient stuff.

theandrewbaileyabout 13 hours ago
Someone has to be buying mainframes. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing to develop them. Shareholders would revolt.
vablingsabout 14 hours ago
There are already microcontrollers that have both arm + riscv support. This isn't something insane.
dmitrygrabout 14 hours ago
RP2350 has separate cores for that. This is one core that speaks both.
bmitcabout 10 hours ago
To my understanding, the RP2350 has two ARM cores and two RISC-V cores, the two pairs are separate, and only one architecture can be used at a time on the chip.
petcatabout 14 hours ago
well that's nonsense. IBM does incredibly cool stuff.

https://research.ibm.com/blog

bmitcabout 10 hours ago
What does IBM actually do? I just can never understand their business and operating model. It seems like they just do a bunch of random stuff and sell to the most enterprisey of enterprises.
ksecabout 5 hours ago
>What does IBM actually do?

You should dive into the topic of Mainframe. There are a lot of financial transaction to other critical infrastructure are dependent on it. And not just because of backward compatibility but technical superiority.

pramabout 9 hours ago
Much like Oracle, they extract money from companies trapped on Db2
rbanffyabout 13 hours ago
Their research is usually behind paywalls. I miss the days when they published their journals and made PDFs available for download.
porridgeraisinabout 14 hours ago
Those takes are wrong with or without this particular processor.
34679about 13 hours ago
Right click -> Open image in new tab -> zoom in

If you haven't already.

edflsafoiewqabout 13 hours ago
Oh is that why the page is like 50 megs.
carabinerabout 13 hours ago
Yep, it's wood.