Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

71% Positive

Analyzed from 1585 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#markdown#html#don#content#cloudflare#https#serve#should#need#text

Discussion (85 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

lo_fye23 minutes ago
Please don’t tell me we are willing to make it easier for AI to read our content than we are to make it easier for humans to read our content.

Better idea: make your UI always prioritize the content.

k1mabout 13 hours ago
I agree with Roy Fielding on this:

> It is a bad design trade-off to send a bunch of header fields on every request just to tell the server all of the possible variations of preference held by the user, particularly when there is a very small chance that any of those dimensions are applicable to the target resource. It has been a bad design trade-off ever since the very brief period in 1993-94 when folks didn't know which image format would be usable on all UAs and there was no CSS or javascript to allow for client-side adaptation.

> ...The caching impact of proactive negotiation is far worse than the one extra round trip per site for reactive negotiation, and even that round-trip isn't necessary in formats that support client-side adaptation.

On the caching impact, Simon Willison wrote:

> ...you can’t deploy an application that uses content negotiation via the Accept header behind the Cloudflare CDN — for example serving JSON or HTML for the same URL depending on the incoming Accept header. If you do, Cloudflare may serve cached JSON to an HTML client or vice-versa.

Note: I posted this in another comment with links to those two quotes which I couldn't copy easily now - will add later.

meindnochabout 12 hours ago
>On the caching impact, Simon Willison wrote:

Wrong: https://developers.cloudflare.com/cache/concepts/vary/

usef-about 11 hours ago
k1mabout 10 hours ago
Thanks. I posted that comment before they had added support - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48353325 - didn't know situation had changed.

But it's something I think developers should think about if they rely on caching. If it took Cloudflare this long to support this, there may be other systems which still don't.

Link to Roy Fielding comment:

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2013JanMar...

9devabout 12 hours ago
Conceptually, I’m not sure I agree. There’s elegance in clients saying "I want this resource, and I’d like to get your markdown version of it. If you don’t have one, I’ll also take HTML." And if you couple that with optional "file extensions" at the end of the url to force a specific format (say, /foo for automatic negotiation, and /foo.html, /foo.json, or /foo.md for the respective media type,) you have a very easy to use API that adapts to the client; not the other way around.

I take the point that it makes caching harder, but I don’t think that should overrule ergonomics concerns.

singpolyma3about 12 hours ago
If CloudFlare isn't honouring vary: accept that's a pretty serious bug
chuckadamsabout 10 hours ago
They just started fully honoring it last month. I guess my comment above was overly optimistic.
chuckadamsabout 12 hours ago
If you do content negotiation, then it’s imperative to send “Vary: accept” in your response. CF and all other CDNs will automatically do the right thing when they see that header.

Content negotiation still has its uses, but most of the time you’re better off using different endpoints.

collimarcoabout 14 hours ago
What about clean, semantic HTML?

It was already optimized for bots and search engines (which are bots) and it has been used for decades. Why we need to serve in markdown now?

There are also many parts of the HTML, like navs, that are useful for bots and AI and may be removed in the markdown version.

slowinabout 14 hours ago
Presumably markdown uses far fewer tokens.
honrabout 12 hours ago
Is that even true? I most often use HTML. HTML is about 5%-20% more tokens than a similar Markdown. As a rule of thumb, the number of tags/structural tokens doubles, when going from markdown to html, while the rest don't change much. On the other hand, I can view HTML without any extra/unusual tools. And composing HTML when I need a bit of structure is far easier than composing markdown.
slowinabout 12 hours ago
> On the other hand, I can view HTML without any extra/unusual tools. And composing HTML when I need a bit of structure is far easier than composing markdown.

This is kind of the opposite of reality no? Markdown is just plain text and meant to be human readable. You don't need XML tags to read and write it, opposed to html where you do and you need a browser to properly view it.

xienzeabout 12 hours ago
That's highly dependent on what sites you're visiting. Take a look around at a lot of modern sites, there's a sea of divs and spans. Markdown conversion helps LLMs a lot.
simonwabout 13 hours ago
That used to matter to me back in the days when the best models still only accepted ~32,000 tokens, but these days even the models that run on my laptop are happy with ~100,000 and the hosted models I use take ~200,000 or more.
slowinabout 12 hours ago
If it's one of many tool calls, I'd assume that less is more.
lekeviciusabout 14 hours ago
I'll do that once any of the top 4 AI chatbots says they'll start making requests with this header. Before that it's just a neat idea with no adoption.

I also think it's exceedingly unlikely that any of the top 4 chatbots would choose to load websites this way. Too many risks for a 0.01% adoption even years later.

joshum97about 14 hours ago
I feel like I am going insane. Who in their right mind would feed an LLM raw HTML in the first place??

HTML is a markup language. User agents present it in a way that makes sense for the user—visually, or through assistive technology. Nothing about adding LLM “users” should change this—their user agent, the harness, should present HTML in a way they can natively understand, by translating it to Markdown.

We are not going to rewrite the entire web because harness developers are too lazy or stupid to pull an HTML to markdown package from npm. If some sites want to do so anyway, good for them, in many cases I’d love to skip the CSS/JS and read the markdown directly (or better, nicely formatted). But don’t blame website authors for your harness wasting your tokens.

alsetmusicabout 13 hours ago
> in many cases I’d love to skip the CSS/JS and read the markdown directly

I've been enjoying https://defuddle.md since learning about it. Works great. Not affiliated.

usef-about 13 hours ago
Exa also has an API for it, returning markdown for a URL, which means you don't need to render js or anything yourself. It doesn't need an account for up to 1k requests/month, which is more than I've ever needed.

Most harnesses have a "zero config" plugin that works, eg: https://pi.dev/packages/pi-exa

rbanffyabout 1 hour ago
Sounds like a nice idea for text-based browsers. Also, it makes a lot of advertising difficult.

OTOH, serving ads to mistrain AI content is an interesting business model.

kaangiray26about 15 hours ago
hoping for this to get mainstream so that I can just view the pages without any ads, js and bloat
Elfenerabout 15 hours ago
> But imagine for a second they did do that. You get the API, all the info is there.

> Why do you need AI then?

(from this HN comment, worth a read in full: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43679585)

phoghedabout 14 hours ago
> Let's say you want to plan a trip to Thailand with your family. You could use the fancy AI to do it for you, or you could build a stupid frontend with minimal natural language understanding.

It's giving https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863#9224

qzncabout 15 hours ago
Yeah, that is why this will not get popular.
jiehongabout 15 hours ago
Markdown ads?
qingcharlesabout 14 hours ago
Time magazine already serves their pages like this to agents with ads for the agents in them, IIRC.
zzo38computerabout 9 hours ago
The web page does not load for me (I cannot reach the server), but the idea to serve Markdown according to the Accept header is possible, although it might be better to do that by changing the file name and adding a header (or a <meta> command) to indicate this possibility, so that there is a different file name in each case. Some already do this, allowing to change the file name for JSON or Markdown instead of HTML, and is helpful (there are also other common ways that you can change a URL to access it differently e.g. "blob" to "raw" in a git viewer, and I use these things sometimes). However, the reason should not be mainly for AI agents, even if it can be helpful for that purpose too.
LunicLynxabout 14 hours ago
Hello … AI company that wants easier access to data
maurelius2about 15 hours ago
Even without AI this would be a nice feature.
Kuyawaabout 14 hours ago
Interesting...

A cherry.jpg image/jpeg file is shown as an image by the browser

A logo in svg like https://news.ycombinator.com/y18.svg too

So browsers should show readme.md as text/markdown and clicking on a link inside that file should also redirect to another markdown file, instant wiki

Browsers should implement that asap and we will follow

Advertisement
Dweditabout 8 hours ago
How about allowing browsers to actually display markdown?
MiroslavPokornyabout 7 hours ago
Why would any website want to put extra effort to "give" their content as markdown to AI and get nothing in return ?
gamplemanabout 2 hours ago
An obvious example is if my product has an SDK and I'd like my customers to be able to script my product via their LLMs then I want to make my docs as AI-friendly as possible, since if their LLM picks my product's SDK rather than the competition, I make $$$.
Semiapiesabout 2 hours ago
A question repeatedly asked by different people throughout these comments, but nobody answers.
fergieabout 4 hours ago
Unless I'm missing something here, this is all wrong. Markdown is OK, but for a variety of reasons, HTML is much better.

What you _should_ be doing is ensuring that your page works with screen readers. That simultaneously solves any kind of machine-readability issues and also makes your website accessible for the blind.

arjieabout 12 hours ago
Everything is determined by cloudflare. If they supported Gemini on the same hostname I’d serve it everywhere. If they supported text/plain and text/html everywhere I’d serve that. But they don’t cache per content encoding so I just do what works for them.

They’re far too useful for me.

arjieabout 9 hours ago
Quite helpful, I’ll see if I can serve text/plain.
a2ff6eeb0about 15 hours ago
Hm, interesting avenue for prompt injection.
spockzabout 14 hours ago
How is that different from today where agents just do searches and ingest web pages?
hnlmorgabout 14 hours ago
I don’t disagree with you in principle but there is a difference.

The MD content isn’t intended for human consumption whereas HTML is. So you either have that injection readable to your users, which could be jarring to non-technical readers, or you play the cat-and-mouse game of hoping those pesky crawlers don’t ignore text that’s not human-visible on a rendered page.

spockzabout 14 hours ago
Right. And today we have something similar with search engines going on where sites want to offer the full text to the engine for seo. But maybe they want to do the opposite to agent and poison the well. So human agents still get the “real” data and agents the “something plausible but not quite right” data.

Or everything just disappears behind something like cloudflare or a paywall.

monneyboiabout 15 hours ago
Yeah, this is the way forward. All the POW stuff is such a waste of energy.

The open internet deserves a real solution instead of gatekeepers in the form of brightdata, firecrawl, cloudflare and the likes.

brapabout 12 hours ago
Best case scenario, this ends up being abused in order to feed LLMs crap responses (or worse).
nozzlegearabout 12 hours ago
No, I don't think I will. I publish things for people, not bots.
4lb0about 11 hours ago
Is this an alternative or complements llms.txt?
OutOfHereabout 10 hours ago
It's a good thought, but the problem with it is that it can never be trusted by the bot, except for a finite whitelisted set of trusted sites that are known to serve representative markdown that faithfully represents the HTML page, its content, and its links.
Advertisement
ErroneousBoshabout 14 hours ago
So can I use this to serve actively harmful content to the Cocaine Piracy Parrots?

Maybe tarpit them into reading gigabytes of Markov Chain nonsense, really slowly?

xgulfieabout 13 hours ago
Sounds like a great way to spread disinfo to LLMs, so I'm down
akomtuabout 9 hours ago
This will be used to serve SEO slop. LLMs are already used as search engines and businesses really want to outrank competition by any means possible.